I spent a couple of hours battling sexism that was unearthed during a debate about making policy to protect members from plagiarism at the Indian blogging community site,
Indiblogger.in yesterday.
(For full background context please know that I've been engaged in an uphill battle to create an effective anti-plagiarism policy. Please know that there has been a recent outbreak of plagiarists getting caught competing and winning high value prize money in contests with copied articles. Please see the discussions prior to the diversion on these links:
http://www.indiblogger.in/forum/topic.php?id=8509 and
http://www.indiblogger.in/forum/topic.php?id=8572)
I reproduce these discussions here to maintain my own record of the sequence of events as unidentified moderators at Indiblogger.in are known to delete threads without explanation.
Here is the link:
http://www.indiblogger.in/forum/topic.php?id=8612 and here is the untouched, unformatted Ctrl C+V transcript of the forum thread:
Sexism by Inditeam/Police/Moderator
I thought these two shocking comments on another thread deserved greater prominence. Please use this thread to discuss, react, comment. Hemal Shah from Mumbai 9 minutes ago @PC there are some things that Men do the best, and its best left it to them. And there are many things that Women do the best, and rightfully so, best left to them.
If things need to work with a Man and a Women, not just in a relationship, is understanding and respecting the things they respectively do the best. And neither women or men are always right. A women has to be submissive because that is in their nature, a man the leader.
I am not part of a pro-man Army, but both Men and women have their respective good qualities, so both should appreciate.
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 6 minutes ago And yes on a lighter note, if a female is not submissive in her nature, that means she has got a few male hormones..
Report This Topic hahaha, very nice Pundit. It was a conversation between me and you, and yes I did mention it was on a lighter note.
What's there to do with Sexism?
:D this is definately sexism. Although I dont want to be judgemental about whether sexism is right or wrong coz it is entirely everyone's personal choice. Personally I am against it.But you are right, there is no point in blowing things big which are entirely someone's personal perogative.
@Aditya:
Thank you for your support, Aditya. It is nice to know that there are young 17 year olds who will stand up for principles while others twice the age remain silent.
@Aditya:
bwhahahaha
How did I have the idea you were 17? Who knows?
Eh, close enough, eh?
Chalo, at least one more 18+ adult fighting the good fight. Now at least, nobody can say nasamajh baccha supporting anti-sexist cause.
@ PC I am the one who is 17. I have mentioned it in some other topic as a reply to you.
@Aditya:
Perhaps it is only in the last 2 years that you have gained the wisdom to fight the good fight and crossed over to the anti-sexist cause?
Surely, you too, at the age of 17, were sexist?
*shaking my head*
@Pundit
haha. Nope, I was not born a sexist hence dont need to cross over :)Although, I believe in one thing though (and ever since I was born).
'Women who seek equality with men lack ambition' and women who care about what men say about them....
:D
@aditya:
Thanks for confirming age is not correlated with sexist ideology.
Woot Woot @ the age old equality/ambition quote.
When I have the energy, which happens to be today, I see it as my duty as a member of the human race desirous of world peace and prosperity and also, you know, in my position as an all round bada55 to fight the good fight.
@Pundit
hahahahaha
you really are on a roll today ;) Go girl! Rid this world of all sexist men!
One man at a time.
Appreciate all solid assists and principled support.
There is no point in blowing things out of proportion @pundit.
I will let others take a call! If everyone else feels that this is worng... err... well let me first see who things that way?
The orignial thread for other's reference. You can find it above Pundit Commentator's Comment to Xeno's.
http://www.indiblogger.in/forum/topic.php?id=8509So you do not recognize that sexism is wrong, ancient, backward, outdated, demeaning and disrespectful to women and disproven time and time again throughout history?
You'd like a couple of strangers on an internet forum to also confess they hold and support these views? You have no regard for the woman you just offended deeply in particular and the entire race of women you just offended in general?
@Hemal:
This is the 21st century! Where are you? So many women are powerful leaders! Mamata Banerjee, Jayalalitha, Sonia Gandhi, Julia Gillard, Hillary Clinton, etc etc. From politics to science... everywhere.
What you've said there would have probably been more openly accepted in the early 20th or 19th century. But the statement that you made is invalid and has been proved wrong throughout history.
You drunk?
Xeno, it was on a lighter note. But yeah, this aint sexism, please... I have my views, she has hers, you have yours.
@ Hemal I Support you
@ Xeno I think that when you are so much considerate towards women, you should have that same feeling towards every other human. Don't you think that one would feel bad if some person asks in the public 'Are you drunk?' ? Would it mind you to tell a sorry.
@Ranjith:
No, Xeno does not owe Hemal an apology for asking why an adult literate professional employed computer savvy male living in mumbai in 2011 of sound mind and body not under the influence of any intoxicants would expound sexist views.
Oh, and I take it you've read whatever version of events you were emailed regarding the background of this entire discussion?
So nice of you to curse at me (which was automatically censored by Renie's software) on another thread and support Hemal here. Gee, I wonder what you heard.
@
Pundit Commentator See my reply on that forum regarding that censor you were talking of. It was self sensored by me, though there was no need of it. I did not curse you. Sorry. Let the matter end here. I shall remain silent on such issues.
Come on! Look at the smiley beside the "You drunk?" If you can support Hemal's lighter note then you should also have understood that I did not say it in an insulting manner. It was just a light-hearted poke at Hemal. I don't want anybody to get offended or hurt by my statements in anyway.
@ Xeno Sorry, did not notice it beacuse of the fact that the first two sentences and the last smiley seem to be a big contracdiction. Never knew that IndiMembers had so much of humor hidden in them.
I challenge anyone to name any job that a man can do that a woman cannot do. Go ahead. Just try to name one. Also, has everybody forgotten girls just beat boys in the ICSE exam results for the nth time? I could go on and on.
I think everybody can guess what my reaction to Hemal's comments might be and no, he was not joking when he said it. So I'd like to let the other women and progressive men in Indiblogger comment on this thread.
How can you decide that I was not joking when I said it?
I did mention it upfront, that it was not to meant, or to be taken seriously.
By the way, if anybody unknown mod is thinking of deleting this thread, please think again.
PC, even I will appreciate others wont delete it either. So you dont have to threaten me with consequences. I think neither IndiBlogger team will do it.
These views are mine and only mine. Neither I am not being paid by IndiBlogger or nor I am part of the IndiBlogger team. I am a moderator of the forum and just a member of the forum as much you are.
I dont know why didnt you see the humor in that? Or was it that you were looking just a chance to start personal attack against me?
*grammar correction
Neither I am being paid by IndiBlogger or nor I am part of the IndiBlogger team.
For everyone's convience, I am copy pasting the conversation as it is from the thread "Consistant Policy on Plagirism"
The Xeno from Kolkata 3 hours ago I am going to pick up a few important things which PC mentioned in one of his long essays here
and put it in simple points.
- We want the Inditeam to be more active in the forum. We need to know which points they are considering and which points may not be valid. We need the Inditeam to participate more into the discussions. Because all that I am seeing is that Renie drops in now and then with a comment, and Hemal is the only "active-as-required" indipolice here.
- We need to be informed about certain things in a much more active frequency... Certain things like Indirank Update Postponing to things which need to be introduced like "Share you views in this forum topic on PLagiarism" or "Participate in the Forum Rules topic Here".
I think i'll go start a new topic on forum rules as well.
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 3 hours ago And Xeno, PC is a "
SHE"
PC, I guess its time you be a less agressive, now even people are confused! A lady has never had essays this hard on the forum
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 3 hours ago Xeno, I have already raised this concern with Renie. Renie has been a mute spectator and he only comments when it is required. The forum was built for Bloggers and not for IndiTeam to be active on.
Yes I agree, when things of this importance and urgency are at stake, their presense is much more than required.
Pundit Commentator from Delhi 1 hour ago @hemal:
Thanks Hemal. I'm getting quite weary of asserting my gender again and again on this forum. Is it really so unbelievable that an Indian woman could be so articulate, assertive, independent, logical, rational, unemotional, opinionated and resilient and self-congratulatory?
I wonder when Indian men will stop underestimating Indian women. You know, some of us had lovely Indian men with tremendous foresight to be our fathers who believed in us and educated us and raised us right.
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 1 hour ago Oh yes, and Indian Women are well known around the world for manners too..
Pundit Commentator from Delhi 1 hour ago @hemal:
Indian or not, when any man anywhere in the world speaks of a woman in this manner (pun intended), the unmissable subtext is "shut up and do what i say. how dare you have a brain of your own."
Et tu, Hemal?
Why am I not surprised?
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 1 hour ago @PC there are some things that Men do the best, and its best left it to them. And there are many things that Women do the best, and rightfully so, best left to them.
If things need to work with a Man and a Women, not just in a relationship, is understanding and respecting the things they respectively do the best. And neither women or men are always right. A women has to be submissive because that is in their nature, a man the leader.
I am not part of a pro-man Army, but both Men and women have their respective good qualities, so both should appreciate.
Hemal Shah from Mumbai 1 hour ago And yes on a lighter note, if a female is not submissive in her nature, that means she has got a few male hormones..
I would like to emphasise my comments a bit further, quoting from the above.
@PC there are some things that Men do the best, and its best left it to them. And there are many things that Women do the best, and rightfully so, best left to them.
If you all see, i clearly mentioned that Some things for MEN and Many things for Women.
Another Comment
I am not part of a pro-man Army, but both Men and women have their respective good qualities, so both should appreciate.
I think I am clear in my stand.
My View, its my personal view:
A women has to be submissive because that is in their nature, a man the leader.
This is my personal view, something that my mother thought me. For, she is my inspiration.
The Lighter note:
I guess when someone says a Lighter note, it means it needs to be taken lightly. If someone can explain me the meaning of the Lighter note, I will be happy to learn.
I think the last line which said A women has to be submissive because that is in their nature, a man the leader. is not really something which can be said on a lighter note. You know that it is a strong opinion in the modern progressive world today.
Well it is your personal opinion and no one can change that. But i think our personal opinions shouldn't be responsible for hurting other people isn't it? So i think you owe an apology to PC.
In my personal opinion, I think Hemal is not a male chauvinist and maybe he didn't want to put forward such an outlook. But if we ignore the fact that it was said on a lighter note or that he did not mean exactly what the words say, i think the statements ARE sexist. Because i think if you take Hemal's last comment to anyone unaware about the situation, he/she will surely assert it to be a sexist remark.
@Xeno Points well taken. It is a personal opinion, obviously was not to hurt anyone's sentiments. I can apologize as I have respect for women.
Okay Pundit. Here I offer an unconditional Apology.
Whatever I said was not intended to hurt you or anyone, and as I said earlier, were my personal comments. I dont wish to reinforce my views to anyone. I am sorry if you felt hurt by my views.
And yes, this is not by force or being afraid of anything, its my sincere apology to you.
It was a lighter conversation that we shared on that thread.
I have made myself very clear that this was all out of humor, and making this a big issue was not really required had you said my words offended you. I would have offered an apology. I only went on clarifying because you made this as a big issue.
Thanks
Great.
I would also like to reiterate what Hemal said right now that making this a big issue was not required. If you felt offended you could have just said it there and he would have clarified or apologized.
Whatever. Hope it ends here.
@xeno:
bwahahaha
Perhaps you have not noticed that Hemal only takes decisions through unscientific polling of whoever happens to be online, looking at the forum and choses to respond to his polls.
Perhaps you have also not realized the gravity of the error in judgement made and exactly how deeply offensive I found the cumulative effects of all the sexist comments made to me. The error in judgement (did i sound like a female who would let sexist remarks go unnoticed?) only goes to highlight the inability to recognize and appreciate the calibre of the person we are dealing with at all times on internet forums anywhere in the world.
In the year 2011, one does not expect to have to explain to a literate, employed, computer savvy adult male living in a metropolitan town that sexism is deeply disrespectful and offensive not just to one woman but to the entire gender. It is the equivalent of racism or casteism.
In that sense that your were being prejudiced against us all. But thanks that you cleared it up. :)
@ PC , I know such instance should not have happened, since he has given an unconditional apology . I think it is better to let this issue out .
I thank you for your support by way of taking the time to drop a message and for your non-support by way of not supporting anti-sexism.
damn, u mean to say that the ability to stand and pee means nothing anymore?
I thank you for your support.
haha. now thats what saying things on a lighter note is! :D
indeed, aditya. isn't it wonderful when men are not sexist pigs?
Why blame all of us! :D Now you are being sexist! ;)
?
Never did. Some men are male chauvinist pigs. Some men are doormats and easy to twirl around the finger by some crafty clever woman, usually his mother. Some men are learned and wise. Some are not. Some men are feminists and proudly include this in their biographies/profiles for all the world to know. Some men are not. Lots more but you catch my drift.
Takes all kinds.
Well caught Xeno. Yes, you're right, that line is the most biting out of the entire statement.
It is never a joke to disrespect all of womenkind and make blanket statements on how all women should behave. Would anybody like to hear women tell men how men should behave?
And those who love details and technicalities, kindly note, the first comment was not a joke and was not even presented as a joke. The person who made the comments clearly only refered to his second comment as a comment in a "lighter vein". I refrain from commenting on the clearly sexist joke, except to say it is made in extremely poor taste. But if there are any scientists among us, please do feel free to enlighten us on the composition of male and female hormones in the human body.
Coming to the disrespect shown to me, add the "submissive" comment to the "manners" comment along with, let us not forget, the "headache" comment on another thread "Forum interaction plea" http://www.indiblogger.in/forum/topic.php?id=8604 and what do you get?
By the way, did I just hear Hemal admitting he is the infamous unknown mod i have heard about and also experienced who deletes threads without explanation? Hmm...certainly a confessional mood today, isn't it. Sorry, don't mean to start anything but if there are confessions, what is one to do with them?
Finally, I thank you for your unconditional apology, Hemal and sincerely hope you see why holding sexist views is extremely wrong for more reasons than you possibly have the capacity to understand. If I am not the right person to spread awareness on this, perhaps I can point you to the icon of the youth - Mr. Raghu Ram and friends at MTV. Have a look at any audition interview tapes of the current season. Mr. Raghu Ram serves up a brand of treatment for people who hold any form of sexist views (men or women) I find thoroughly refreshing and genuine and effective.
Would like to offer a clarification.
I DID not say that I am the unknown mod who deleted threads. There are other IndiBlogger IndiPolice (IndiPolice and IndiMods are differnet roles if you dont know, An IndiMod scans through Blogs that are joined in. IndiPolice mann the forum against Spam. ) members who have the similar rights too.
- Rohan
- Mohan
- Magali
- Mag
- Addy
- Myself
These all too had the rights to delete the forum threads, along with IndiTeam.
I dont understand Pundit where did you pic that up from? And yes, I repeat. Dont come up with acusations when you dont know.
That's cool. Thanks for clarification. You're the only person who responded to the plea to make sure unknown mods do not delete this thread without explanation or warning as has happened in the past to many. Hence exactly such a clarification was necessary.
I see nobody has attempted to accept my challenge to name a single job that a man can do that a woman cannot do. Wise choice.
Commically, I can tell you one thing that Salman Khan from the movie Hum Dil de Chuke Sanam did upon asking what Women cannot do that Men can do.
.. Women cannot remove their t-shirt like salman did in that movie..
I am just quoting that example, if you feel offended, go, Sue Salman Khan and the producers of the movie.
#Comedyfail.
Ever heard of a topless beach? Ever heard of breastfeeding?
and by the way, job meant job not task but thanks for showing us all that there is no task women cannot do.
Just because you lack a sense of humor right now does not mean its a #comedyfail
there is every thing a women can do! Yes, I only got a bit particular, there are things best done by a Man and Best done by woman. And thats exactly what I have written about.
Once Again: Somethings are best done by Women, some things are best done my Men. End of the Story.
?
I take it you have never seen a woman breastfeed a baby in public? I take it you've never heard of topless beaches? I thought of one more. I take it you've never seen a desitute woman in a rural village?
It is a comedyfail because women can and do take their tops off in public.
Oh, look at that, I thought of one more.
I take it you've never heard/seen a stripper?
I am from a well to do family and my parents have given me enough values to live. I dont feel that you deserve my comments any more.
? Off-topic. What does that have to do with the topic you started - whether or not women can and do take tops off in public? As usual, if you cannot engage on merit, by all means take an alternative route of your choice.
Thank you most sincerely and kindly, good sir from Twitterverse.
oh and if y'all can't wager a guess and if there aren't any toddlers around, the phrase that got censored is # m i n d is f u c k e d
It's nice to know Hemal is not just quick to jump into conclusions, quick to apologize too. That's good spirit.
I'm thinking...Hypatia, Christine de Pizan, Rokeya Sakhawat Hossain, Pandita Ramabai, Hélène Cixous, Gayatri Spivak Chakravorty...if I go on I might end up listing the impossible.
Our mothers and fathers tell us many things but the world is outside our little wells and it is full of surprises and it could be very liberating to know that men need emancipation more than women.
Perhaps the gentleman right below deserves some of your attention?
To quote Prashant Bhushan who said this for Amar Singh, "It is curious to even call him a gentleman".
Just when I thought teens these days are wiser!
Doesn't hurt to hope though they will one day be or learn and grow up to be.
Appears to be another haeted discussion. One needs to understand that everyone's opinions do differ and there is nothing wrong in subscribing to the views held by ancient India. Moreover, Hemal has said in a reply above that he had said it in a lighter mood. The only mistake I think was the lack of an emoticion that smiles.
Lastly: To PC
Just think about your life. You might have wanted to say something to a colleague but she has taken it in the wrong way unable to understand what you had intended to say. Please don't say that there never occured something like that. When there is a scope for misunderstanding when when the human soul can communicate, don't you think that there is a chance of misunderstanding when instaed of the entire soul, only words speak. Just think over it. Cool down and here is something. Even though I am just 17, I too hold women in great reverence.
Stand in front of the mirror, smile for yourself and think of the power that it has to ma others happy. Cool down and havood day.
Huge WTF comment. Somebody from Ranjith's gender, kindly speak to him before I get my claws into him.
WTF? What is that? I have the least knowledge of the acronyms used on forums and in chat. Sorry if anything that I have said above has hurt you. I understand that it was my mistake to interefere in such discussions, highly inflamatory. I think that there was no mistake of mine to get your claws into me. But still, I apologise and from now onwards, I am not going to involve in such discussions.
Hurts to see others pounce on a small child like me, just 17. Not a joke, serious but doesn't matter much. Such things have become a part of my life. The unlucky me.
This is my last reply on this and other similar thraeds.
BYE BYE
We are truly blessed. We are not worthy. Nooo.
@Ranjith why you care to reply when you know you wont be heard?
@hemal:
bwahahaha
So now you are not in favour of soliciting opinions from whoever happens to look at the thread? Decision reversal? Or have you truly changed your opinion on the serious matter of gender discrimination?
Who ever is contributing to this thread, or to any other thread wishes to be heard as well. You dont let them do that. You just get hyper if people dont agree to you, and the very example is seen in your first reply to Ranjith. You used abusive language for what reason? Did he Flame you? No, girl. He said somethign that was against your liking.
Grow up girl, you need to start accepting other's views and not super impose yours to everyone. Your views will only be appreciated if you stop imposing it.
@hemal:
Perhaps you missed the two times on this thread that I informed you all already that he cursed me on another thread (history of indiblogger) an hour ago just before he arrived on this thread? That curse was censored by Renie's software. I do believe that and the personal attacks here constitute flaming.
Perhaps you've also missed that I chose not to respond to his very first huge wtf comment to me requesting anybody else to take a stab at it.
A homophobic sexist insulting and abusive 17 year old troll is not worthy of any more energy from me.
Dude, why bring Ancient India into this?
Women used to be panchayat heads in our ancient system man! not to mention we wrote the Kamasutra. that says a lot about our ancient society.
PS: I know its not in sync with the discussion but I just cant take it when people blame stuff on Indian culture or any such thing
btw I like how you have taken it in a light tone :) Good luck. Hope that Pundit also cools down now :D
@aditya:
Thanks for sticking up for ancient India. I'm sure ancient India appreciates it. Ancient India gets a bad rap all the time.
@pundit
Thank you Ancient India :D
Sorry for replying again even after I have said in the above post that I am saying a BYE BYE to this thread. I am come here again Simply to tell @Pundit Commentator that I have not used any obscene words in that other thread. I gave my explanation there. It wasn't censored by the software. It is myself who has inserted those *** even though it wasn't any abusive word. Above all, I am not aware of all those words much and there is no need for me to be aware of. Just see yourself posting the word f****** in that other thread and that too escaping the censor of this board if it exists. Moreover, I need not be controlled by someone else's censor, be it Renie's or some other webmaster's at some other forum. I have the voice within me that tells me what is right and what is wrong. And I never hurt people? It is upto you whether you believe it or not.
Thanks for listening to me, if at all you had.
Here's a
news item about the excavation of an ancient Indian matriarchal tradition dating back to 1500 BC that breathtakingly beats European tradition of same by a millennium.
Speechless and amazed. Don't be. Become!
Another message of support from the twitterverse:
@PunditComment It is upsetting that someone could call a forum member as a 'headache' so openly, hope the matter is resolved now ?
@ Pundit I doubt if all that posted on twitter and facebook do really matter in the Indian scenario? Haven't you seen some posting something like 'I love you so much' quite frequently and to everyone they know? Do they really mean it?
And by the way, a personal question, out of the topic, what do you do? I mean your profession. I see you to be very active on the forum, almost the whole day, if I am not wrong.
@Ranjith:
First cursing at me that was censored by Renie's software and now this. Could somebody please introduce Ranjith to the forum guidelines written by Renie 2 years ago?
Hush child, run along now, go play with your little friends. You've done your job, you can let your puppet master know you did your best.
@ Pundit Commentatorread my reply above and in the other thread.
@ Pundit
There are things that only men can do and those only women can do and here is and example.
Only men can marry women.
Only women can marry men.
Aren't we blessed? We are in the presence of a homophobe.
homophobe? What does it mean?
Sigh....
So is any of the honoured Indipolice team going to do anything about the abusive troll? No? Not surprised.
Trolls, run wild. My energy is required elsewhere. Goodnight all.
Not gud PC, nt gud at all.....u just lost my respect...grow up, will u?
Seeing the entire thread, I'm just thinking why we are discussing this further after an apology here, I have no idea. All this energy would've been better spent on something more constructive. Arguments never lead to anything useful especially on something like this.
Thanks Vineet for providing an official closure motion from Inditeam on this discussion.
As you correctly noticed, I long ago accepted the unconditional apology from Hemal. Any further dialogue on this thread is initiated by whoever else wishes to drop a line in their infinite wisdom. Quite pointedly, I initiated nothing at all other than the thread itself. I am happy that I was able to shine a light on the matter and I'm sure you are not entirely displeased with the traffic this controversy has generated.
I find the entire spectrum of reactions from men on a discussion of sexism highly illuminating and amusing. Conflict often brings out the true colours of humans.
Some men are unapologetic sexists perhaps unmindful of the grave error in their unfactual views. On the other end of the scale, some are outright feminists. Some just don't want to hear about it and don't want to say anything about it. Perhaps they think the ills of the world can be brushed under a carpet. Some know sexism is wrong but want to quickly brush the topic aside. Oh, the horror of it all. Some are wise and supportive and adopt humor because they know nothing serious they say is likely to get through. Some play the age old blame the victim game - often adopted in matters of gender related or sexual crime such as date rape. For some men, the woman is always wrong, even if she is right and especially if she is outspoken and principled and points out any disrespect shown to her and her entire gender by a (gasp) man. Some bizarrely support the cause but not the effort. It's like saying, yes of course sexism is wrong but sexists are not wrong.
We are the people we choose to be.
As for me, when I have the energy, I will always fight the good fight. Solid assists and principled support is always appreciated but not necessary, for me personally. I rely on no one. That is the way of the big bad world. Yehi zindagi ki reet hai.
Thanks very much, indeed, everybody, for such an illuminating discussion. Best of luck with all your views, whatever they may be, towards women.
Reply to this topic
To my dear readers, if you made it to the every end, you deserve a treat. This one goes out to all the sexist men at Indiblogger who spoke or stayed silent yesterday -
Beyoncé's 'Run The World (Girls)' 
5:32 AM
Pundit
Image via WikipediaGovernment to People of India: Speak as long as nobody is listening.
